EXCERPT:
HABERMAN: “There are aspects of this version of Rudy Giuliani that have always existed. You know, he did what was a widely praised job leading the city right after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, which was a terrifying time in this city. He has always been conspiracy minded. He has always had an openness to power and to access to power. So, yes, on the one hand, it's Donald Trump. On the other hand, I don't know that anybody forced Rudy Giuliani to go do the things for which he was found to have defamed two women who people -- no one had ever heard of before until he started throwing their names around. And so, you know, yes, there are a lot of people who like Rudy Giuliani, who hear him say things like that and they feel very bad. What's always missing, and it's understandable, he's almost 80 -- you know, an 80 year old man, or however old he is now, but it's also - there's never any sense of, you know, how he got into this position, which are actions he took himself. And so, yes, it was in the service of Donald Trump, but he -- these were -- he -- he had agency here and he is a grown man.”